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4 element beam antenna's

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4 element beam antenna's

Post by HOUND DOG » Thursday, 28 June 2007, 15:02 PM

I am looking at 4 element beam antennas. I see the maco 104C which has a power multiplication of 28x and a db gain of 14.
Then I look at the Jo Gunn 4 element conventional that has 50x power multiplication and a db gain of 15.5. What is it about the Jo gunns that make them have a higher power multiplication and perform so much better then the less expensive maco?
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Post by preacherman » Thursday, 28 June 2007, 15:42 PM

IN short, they don't. In fact, the Maco may actually have a bit more gain
and better front to back ratio as well. Jo Gunn has ad writers that like
to write what people want to see rather than what really is. The maco is
longer and has better spacing on the boom of the elements.

OTOH...the 'gunn is built VERY sturdily and will handle all the power you
could ever want to put into it. It's not a bad antenna...they just aren't
real truthful about the gain you might see. The Maco exaggerates too,
but not nearly as much.
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Post by Mississippifrog » Thursday, 28 June 2007, 15:45 PM

preacherman wrote:IN short, they don't. In fact, the Maco may actually have a bit more gain
and better front to back ratio as well. Jo Gunn has ad writers that like
to write what people want to see rather than what really is. The maco is
longer and has better spacing on the boom of the elements.

OTOH...the 'gunn is built VERY sturdily and will handle all the power you
could ever want to put into it. It's not a bad antenna...they just aren't
real truthful about the gain you might see. The Maco exaggerates too,
but not nearly as much.
preacherman
I agree 100% I could not have said it any better. :wink:

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set up

Post by doctor » Friday, 29 June 2007, 17:40 PM

They all say db gain for sales, but if it was me I would run the MACO, but each his own choice

doctor :shock:
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Post by 231 » Friday, 29 June 2007, 18:12 PM

The real question is "db gain over what?" (i.e. dbi or dbd)
None of them say...for a reason I suspect. :roll: Marketing...plain and simple. I too would be more partial to the Maco products out of the two choices. But if you are open to even better performance, consider a quad. By far they are at the top of the list of good performers. ;)


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Post by popeye » Saturday, 30 June 2007, 16:35 PM

Don't mean to but in .......why do you like the quad better? I am in the process of looking for a beam and wanted to be sure before I bought.....I was looking at the maco "Shooting Star"...any help is appreciated. thanks

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Post by Punkin Head » Saturday, 30 June 2007, 16:44 PM

if I was were I could have a beam antenna I would run a quad, main reason is with a quad you have the option of running vertical, flat, or both. with just a regular 4 element beam for example you can only run flat or vertical depending how you set it when you put it up. if you only run flat side for dx then you wouldnt need a quad but if you talk local and dx then I think a quad would serve you better, my experience is local vertical works better and for dx works better I am not sure why but with my experience its how it worked for me.
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Post by DX47 » Saturday, 30 June 2007, 16:52 PM

Check out the 4 element beam from Sirio, from what people say they are made better than the macos, and are easier to put together. Cheaper too, they can be had for under 150.00 They are very popular in Europe.

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Re: 4 element

Post by trip7downunder » Saturday, 30 June 2007, 17:12 PM

Hmmmmmm jo-gunn has a power gain they claim on their super audio 8 of 150x. Who ever reads tis answer me this question. Can you get 25 db gain out of an antenna. I dont think so.
personally I would go for maco as you can modify the m104 to be a little performer. As I am in Australia I decided to make my own 8 element, so i purchased 2 programs, Yagi mechanic and eznec v4.0.
Many months of learning the program and all that i was ready to build. I needed a 5 kw gamma as we have nothing here like that. I called jo-gunn and im sorry to say they were rude on the phone , so I called maco and they helped me out and purchased their 5 kw gamma match kit. My antenna is similar to the Super audio 8 but longer. I spaced it my own custom way ensuring the current drps of as it is transferred to each element. In the end my antenna is 42 feet long with 15 db gain at 1.5 wavelengths above ground and 65db front to back ratio . Maco is more realistic to gain claims as i simulated the m108 and had only 1db less gain than mine.
Here is a webpage that has the specs to optimize a maco for 27.555 but you could changed element lengths to bring it down for 27 mhz http://signalengineering.com/ultimate/4 ... _yagi.html .... And if you would like to see few pics off my antenna and few watergates go to http://www.putfile.com/tripple7downunder

Just another thing 50x multiplication is like 17db and we all know that gain of an antenna is by element spacing rather than how many elements. BOOM length is the main factor and to claim 17db gain for a 4 element is a joke.. Cheers all have a good day. Trip is gone now

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Post by drdx » Saturday, 30 June 2007, 17:40 PM

Aside from hardware quality, the math on element length and spacing will largely determine things. That 28x power multiplication should be the figure for about 11.9 db, and they are saying 14, so that must be 14dbi. The 11.9 (dbd) is probably a realistic figure if the boom is long enough, although 10dbd is the standard figure I've read for a well assembled 4 element with a 1/2 wavelength or so boom. That 10 dbd would of course carry a 10x power multiplication and nice front to back ratio. Look into Mosely and Cushcraft as well. -drdx
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Re: 4 element

Post by dud muck » Saturday, 30 June 2007, 18:07 PM

Jo Gunn specs are weird. They list gain, and then "audio gain", whatever that means.
Antenna gain needs to specified in dBi or dBd, Using dBi, the number will be 2.15dB more.

A list of dB gain verses watts multipication:
10dB = 10x
13dB = 20x
16dB = 40x
17dB = 50x
20dB = 100x
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Post by 231 » Saturday, 30 June 2007, 23:03 PM

popeye wrote:Don't mean to but in .......why do you like the quad better? I am in the process of looking for a beam and wanted to be sure before I bought.....I was looking at the maco "Shooting Star"...any help is appreciated. thanks
I've run the Shooting star and they are a decent performer. Their quad reflector sets them apart form a yagi. I personally prefer the quad reflector over the yagi reflector any day. Many years ago I compared the Shooting star to the old LongJohn 5 element (yagi) and the Shooting Star worked better.

Quads tend to work better with their full wavelength wire vs. a 1/2 wave dipole that a yagi has. Their receive quality is better too (typically)...rejecting some of the unwanted electrical noise that most yagis wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, yagi's work pretty darn good. But I've yet to hear anyone who's used a quad (assembled properly) say they didn't like it better than a yagi. And not all quads are dual polarity. As far as I know (and I could be wrong on this) the only current manufacturer that makes a dual polarity feed point quad is Signal Engineering.

Maybe we'll get luck and Century21 will jump in and give his experience with his quads. I know he's run several beams too...and last I heard he had stacked a couple of 5 element quads. :D

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Post by BOOTYMONSTER » Friday, 13 July 2007, 23:52 PM

what do you folks think of the wolf radio antennas ? their 4 element is $140 and their 5 element is $190 . they look pretty well made . but i havnt had a base in a long time and my antenna then was a penetrator 500 . ive been half way considering putting up a base . if i do im sure ill do an omni antenna first and maybe consider a beam later .

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Post by trip7downunder » Saturday, 14 July 2007, 4:06 AM

Dud Muck you are on the money right on. At a gain of 14 db the power multiplication is 25x. That is from William Orr's beam antenna handbook. Real figures. As other people have stated that Jo Gun does try to brain wash people no doubt with their outrageous figures.

And to answer Hound dogs question .What is it about the Jo gunns that make them have a higher power multiplication and perform so much better then the less expensive maco? Well it could not possibly perform to those figures but to sell the antenna why not tell 99's to make them sound far more superior , that is the answer and I'm back out

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Re: 4 element

Post by Night Crawler » Saturday, 14 July 2007, 7:45 AM

dud muck wrote:Jo Gunn specs are weird. They list gain, and then "audio gain", whatever that means.
Antenna gain needs to specified in dBi or dBd, Using dBi, the number will be 2.15dB more.

A list of dB gain verses watts multipication:
10dB = 10x
13dB = 20x
16dB = 40x
17dB = 50x
20dB = 100x
I agree what is "AUDIO GAIN" never heard that one?
Gain is measured over isotropic which is 0db or over a dipole 3db
10db over isotropic = 10db
10db over a dipole = 13db over isotropic
Check what their reference point is for gain.

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Post by Popcorn501 » Saturday, 14 July 2007, 10:50 AM

True the Jo Gunn figures maybe way off but the beat a Junk Maco beam any day! Better forward gain,better rejection and better built hands down!!(and yes they are way over priced)

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Post by dud muck » Saturday, 14 July 2007, 17:25 PM

Popcorn501 wrote:True the Jo Gunn figures maybe way off but the beat a Junk Maco beam any day! Better forward gain,better rejection and better built hands down!!(and yes they are way over priced)
I wouldn't call the maco junk. Certainly the Jo Gunn is built better. The Jo Gunn is very sturdy, should survive a hurricane. But that will require a beefier tower and rotor.
As far as beating the maco, I doubt you could see enough difference to justify the price difference. When a signal skips off the ionosphere, the polarization is random.
The Jo Gunn is an awesome antenna if the cost is not an issue, its just that claim of "audio gain" for an antenna is just salesmanship.
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OK I WIll Reply

Post by Century21 » Sunday, 15 July 2007, 0:33 AM

A friend sent me a message to reply. Now, I read most of the replys all ready, and being 3 am here and just got back from a club with my sister and brother, im a little tired. This maybe a little lengthy, But, I CAN and will give examples and REAL life people running things my way....
Now, im not no big radio by no means. Why ? Heck i dont know, I run a 8 element quad, 45 foot long, NOT the SE's quad, I have had PDL II's, Moonrakers, Stacked V quads, 4 element MAco, 5 element Maco, 6 Element Quad, a 10 Element quad, 2 stacked 5 element quads,and about 5 home made beams.
Joe Gunns are over rated by far. Maco's are too. What are they getting these figures from? 36 ft off the ground or, 136 ft? Your guess is as good as mine. Is it DBD or DBI gain? For all arguments a 4 element has about 10 DBD if optimized and tuned to the height of Atleast 36 ft. Well you can get a little more gain, but with gain, you loose the back. And with a better back you loose some gain. And all of this could be real impressive. LETS say you have a 4 element, 60ft, claiming about 14 DBD. Where is your gain going? Ok, maybe not out the back, mostly out the front im sure. BUT, beams produce different lobes out the front at different angles. So how much gain is to each lobe with respect to the other? Also some beams depending on how they are set up, produce a lobe out the top...
A audio gain? From an antenna? NOPE not going to happen sorry Jo Gunn... Radios produce the audio. But that being said, as you increase in decibels there are so many bells in a decibel which is the smalled amount a human ear can pick up, it does make sense to say, yes if it is 8 DB more then the 0 DB Dipole. Then as the DB's increase the SOUND of the persons audio on someones receiver will also.
What, a yagi or a quad...
well a yagi produces better Short DX because its main lobes are high. And maybe better all around for DX, A quad has a lower angle which makes it a little more Superior in long Dx and 150 miles down the RD.
I talked to John Deere tonight on the superbowl. He is running a 6 element i helped design. ITs not the best, but it is all around a good setup for his conditions and requirements. I was sending 8 S-units. He is over 120 miles away, Its not ground waving. Its anytime he is lookin my way and im lookin his. If your ever on 6, on the weekends, you will hear him advertise a century21 antenna once in a while.
Kruked Polititian also runs a 8 element i designed. It was more a less experimental, but there are pictures of it on my site. It works awful well also.
A maco out of the box will do you well. Good all around performance. But if you want it right, you have to get a hold of somebody, that can tune it to your channel, and the EXACT height from the ground.
Joe Gunns got a great gain.... But the back door is not.... With higher gain you lose the back door.
I am willing to help design a beam for anyone. But you have to follow the directions exactly. I have another beam, 7 element going up soon in Oklahoma. They are all yagi's. You have to make up your mind what is it you want. DX, local, or a broadbanded beam.
But my motto has always been, any beam is better then no beam.
Hope this will help somehow. PM me if you need anything else.
Thanks
21

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Post by Popcorn501 » Sunday, 15 July 2007, 5:34 AM

Posted: July 14 2007 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I wouldn't call the maco junk.



Well i would,pure junk so cheaply built i wouldn't wast my hard earned money on them period.

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Re: OK I WIll Reply

Post by Mississippifrog » Sunday, 15 July 2007, 10:43 AM

Century21 wrote:A friend sent me a message to reply. Now, I read most of the replys all ready, and being 3 am here and just got back from a club with my sister and brother, im a little tired. This maybe a little lengthy, But, I CAN and will give examples and REAL life people running things my way....
Now, im not no big radio by no means. Why ? Heck i dont know, I run a 8 element quad, 45 foot long, NOT the SE's quad, I have had PDL II's, Moonrakers, Stacked V quads, 4 element MAco, 5 element Maco, 6 Element Quad, a 10 Element quad, 2 stacked 5 element quads,and about 5 home made beams.
Joe Gunns are over rated by far. Maco's are too. What are they getting these figures from? 36 ft off the ground or, 136 ft? Your guess is as good as mine. Is it DBD or DBI gain? For all arguments a 4 element has about 10 DBD if optimized and tuned to the height of Atleast 36 ft. Well you can get a little more gain, but with gain, you loose the back. And with a better back you loose some gain. And all of this could be real impressive. LETS say you have a 4 element, 60ft, claiming about 14 DBD. Where is your gain going? Ok, maybe not out the back, mostly out the front im sure. BUT, beams produce different lobes out the front at different angles. So how much gain is to each lobe with respect to the other? Also some beams depending on how they are set up, produce a lobe out the top...
A audio gain? From an antenna? NOPE not going to happen sorry Jo Gunn... Radios produce the audio. But that being said, as you increase in decibels there are so many bells in a decibel which is the smalled amount a human ear can pick up, it does make sense to say, yes if it is 8 DB more then the 0 DB Dipole. Then as the DB's increase the SOUND of the persons audio on someones receiver will also.
What, a yagi or a quad...
well a yagi produces better Short DX because its main lobes are high. And maybe better all around for DX, A quad has a lower angle which makes it a little more Superior in long Dx and 150 miles down the RD.
I talked to John Deere tonight on the superbowl. He is running a 6 element i helped design. ITs not the best, but it is all around a good setup for his conditions and requirements. I was sending 8 S-units. He is over 120 miles away, Its not ground waving. Its anytime he is lookin my way and im lookin his. If your ever on 6, on the weekends, you will hear him advertise a century21 antenna once in a while.
Kruked Polititian also runs a 8 element i designed. It was more a less experimental, but there are pictures of it on my site. It works awful well also.
A maco out of the box will do you well. Good all around performance. But if you want it right, you have to get a hold of somebody, that can tune it to your channel, and the EXACT height from the ground.
Joe Gunns got a great gain.... But the back door is not.... With higher gain you lose the back door.
I am willing to help design a beam for anyone. But you have to follow the directions exactly. I have another beam, 7 element going up soon in Oklahoma. They are all yagi's. You have to make up your mind what is it you want. DX, local, or a broadbanded beam.
But my motto has always been, any beam is better then no beam.
Hope this will help somehow. PM me if you need anything else.
Thanks
21
Good read Century21 :wink:

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Post by highdrive » Sunday, 15 July 2007, 15:49 PM

I know people that own maco 5 elements that will hang with or beat 8 element gunns. As for as quality....I own a maco v5/8 that outright talks and has conquered many wind storms without a problem...period!

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Post by Popcorn501 » Sunday, 15 July 2007, 16:02 PM

Posted: July 15 2007 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know people that own maco 5 elements that will hang with or beat 8 element gunns. As for as quality....I own a maco v5/8 that outright talks and has conquered many wind storms without a problem...period!



Sounds to me that who ever took this test didn't know how to compare a beam ant,or the 8 element wasn't set up right.I have owned Maco beams Hygain beams and Jogunn beams,and some home made beams,hands down the Jogunn out performed the Maco and was a way better built ant.

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Post by HOUND DOG » Friday, 20 July 2007, 16:30 PM

BOOTYMONSTER wrote:what do you folks think of the wolf radio antennas ? their 4 element is $140 and their 5 element is $190 . they look pretty well made . but i haven't had a base in a long time and my antenna then was a penetrator 500 . ive been half way considering putting up a base . if i do im sure ill do an omni antenna first and maybe consider a beam later .

Is Wolf Radio still in business? I have tried emailing them several times about their 4 element beam but never heard back from them!
*In a Galaxy far far away*



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Post by Popcorn501 » Friday, 20 July 2007, 18:54 PM

I just looked at these Wolf ant, that some of the people where talking about and they look just like a cheap made Maco!!! I don't know how they would perform,but from the looks of them i wouldn't waste my money on one of them to find out they are just cheap junk like the Maco beam.

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Post by HOUND DOG » Friday, 20 July 2007, 20:03 PM

Hey Popcorn, who in "your opinion" makes a good 4 element beam that isn't "junk"? I looked at the same pic's on wolf radio.com but honestly, I can't tell from those 4 pic's what the quality is.
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Post by Sheriff Bart » Saturday, 21 July 2007, 10:27 AM

Popcorn501 wrote:True the Jo Gunn figures maybe way off but the beat a Junk Maco beam any day! Better forward gain,better rejection and better built hands down!!(and yes they are way over priced)
Century 21 says "A maco out of the box will do you well. Good all around performance. But if you want it right, you have to get a hold of somebody, that can tune it to your channel, and the EXACT height from the ground.
Joe Gunns got a great gain.... But the back door is not.... With higher gain you lose the back door".

Since Maco is about (or has) closed its doors for good you may want to pass on one at this time. Even recent buyers have complained that the quality of the Maco's has dropped considerably. On the other hand Jo Gunn's are built like a brick *%#@house. It has better bandwidth due to the size of its elements. The back door isn't the greatest but it is noticeable.. The front door though is all you would want it to be. If you get Jo Gunns get them as high as possible cause they bleed for miles... lol

73's

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Post by Popcorn501 » Saturday, 21 July 2007, 13:09 PM

Man look at them they are built just like a Maco with the cheap clamps that hold the element on to the boom mass!!!!They are junk just like the Maco(so cheaply built)

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Post by Sheriff Bart » Saturday, 21 July 2007, 20:33 PM

compared to the maco beams Jo Gunns are built like M1A1 Abrams and Maco's are like jeeps.

73's

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Post by dud muck » Saturday, 21 July 2007, 20:37 PM

Its a moot point anyways, maco is out of business. The owner is old and retiring.

I suppose the only useful comparison is between signal-engineering beems and jo-gunn.
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no comparison

Post by Century21 » Saturday, 21 July 2007, 23:23 PM

You cant compare beams that are completely different. Quads and yagi's are 2 different worlds. There is other beam manufactures out there, mosley, is sirio maco?, jo gunns, and probably others. What ever happened to makin your own beam... Its not hard.

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Post by BOOTYMONSTER » Sunday, 05 August 2007, 21:40 PM

if everybody wanted the same thing there would only be one mic,one radio,one amp and one antenna . this hobby has many options for many opinions .



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Looking for a great antenna consider a Quad over yagi

Post by PONY EXPRESS » Friday, 10 August 2007, 15:46 PM

http://www.signalengineering.com/
These have gotten some great reviews from those who have them. Dual polarity 4 element quad. They also have other directional antennas

Longer booms are higher gain but Cubical Quads are quieter have more gain and have smaller turning radius in diamond configuration

I just picked this up and it waits to be put in the air. yep a 4 element quad 24 years old

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Post by Mississippifrog » Friday, 10 August 2007, 16:15 PM

You'll love the 4 element quad. I know i love mine :D

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Post by Blackdammit » Sunday, 26 August 2007, 21:23 PM

Trip Seven Downunder,

Time to put the shack under that monster!!!


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Re: 4 element beam antenna's

Post by smoke blower » Monday, 24 April 2017, 15:43 PM

I have a set of Maco shootingstars and it doesn't have a very good backdoor at all and it is put together right. Is there anyway to to increase the backdoor rejection

[ Post made via Android ] Image

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Re: 4 element beam antenna's

Post by jessejamesdallas » Monday, 24 April 2017, 18:58 PM

smoke blower wrote:
Monday, 24 April 2017, 15:43 PM
I have a set of Maco shootingstars and it doesn't have a very good backdoor at all and it is put together right. Is there anyway to to increase the backdoor rejection

[ Post made via Android ] Image
Mine does...I can't hear anyone behind me...Now off to the sides I still get a fair signal, and can talk off the sides fairly well, but ain't nothing coming in from the back side...Up 50'
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Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.




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