Yes your right, I only get about 1.5 s unit differnce with my 2 pill. I really don't need to much more power. Just like to have enough to shoot some skip. I don't think I will get that 1x2 or the other 2pill. I think I will save a little more money and get a 4 pill. Now I have been looking at a fatboy base 4 pill. They have 2 kinds 4x1446 Base and 4x2879. The 4x1446 is rated for high drive radios but would rather have 4x2879. drdx do you think the 4x2879 is a good choice or the 4x1446? What kind of wattage do you think I could get driving either of the two with my radio?drdx wrote:The radio, with 40w, is too much for the 1 in the 1x2. In fact, it is really too much for a straight 2 pill but you can do it. The 2879 "pill" only needs 10 watts for great drive, per the specs, and be running nicely. So...... a straight 4 pill would do fine and make the most of the radio's drive. If you're content with the power of a 1x2, and it is probably plenty for many, then get it since it is a good price but don't put over 10w or so into that 1x2, as it doesn't need the drive. The 1 pill is there for that.
Something else to think about is that if your radio is doing 40w a 2 pill amp is not going to add a whole lot of signal, maybe 1.5 s-units or so on voice peaks. The 4 pill would add to that nicely.
-drdx
Yes, you are right the antenna is the cheapest area to see the most return.drdx wrote:I'd go for the 2879 box myself. I'd guess you'd see 500w or so peak? Probably much more on a generous meter, but really the skip part is going to depend on conditions and of course your antenna system. The antenna is the cheapest area to see the most return if you haven't got it all up to speed there yet, and that includes nice low loss coax. You can shoot skip on your radio barefoot if the conditions are right but more power will help ease you over the others at times.
-drdx
drdx you have some awsome suggestions! I've always use ground plane antennas but always wondered how much better beams would be. It crossed my mind several times putting up a small set of beams. I did not know a a simple 3 element beam would be that much gain. Sirio SY27-3 or Maco M-103C with Antennacraft TDP-2 Ant. Rotor? It wont be 60ft in the air I will need 60ft of coax to reach my base.I got a 40ft tower with 10ft mast. I think the siro is lighter but the maco has little more db gain. I would run them verticle. Think that would be alright? Thankyou for all your suggestions your a great help.drdx wrote:Well, going from that height, that antenna, and that coax, to an Imax with good coax at 60 feet is a big jump. I wouldn't doubt that you'd see a jump in performance. Before you do all that, note the signal strengths of various stations up close and far out, good bases with reliable stable signals. After the change to 60, see if the close up ones get stronger or weaker. It is possible to be too high with an antenna for close up local contacts, and the same goes for skip to various distances, but I'd still go for the 60 foot mark. You can always put up a lower antenna, like your antron, for comparison and variety.
Another thought: Keep the 2 pill in line, spend that 4 pill money on a simple 3 element beam and cheap rotor, or make your own yagi, hex, or moxon, and make that 2 pill perform like and 8 pill or larger based on gain alone. And on top of that, the antenna also aids in better receive, something the amp isn't going to improve.
Do you operate sideband much? That may largely determine your amp choice.
-drdx
40w def not too much for a 1x2. While the 2879 may only need 10watts drive to get 100 per transistor. Driving with 40watts will only get more out of it.drdx wrote:The radio, with 40w, is too much for the 1 in the 1x2. In fact, it is really too much for a straight 2 pill but you can do it. The 2879 "pill" only needs 10 watts for great drive, per the specs, and be running nicely. So...... a straight 4 pill would do fine and make the most of the radio's drive. If you're content with the power of a 1x2, and it is probably plenty for many, then get it since it is a good price but don't put over 10w or so into that 1x2, as it doesn't need the drive. The 1 pill is there for that.
Something else to think about is that if your radio is doing 40w a 2 pill amp is not going to add a whole lot of signal, maybe 1.5 s-units or so on voice peaks. The 4 pill would add to that nicely.
-drdx
If you decide to get the 2879 box you can throw a one pill modulator between your radio and the 4pill get some more watts out of it. With a 40 watt radio alone id say it will do between 450 or 500 on a new DOSEY meter PEP watts. With a one or two pill amp driving it youd probably be looking at between 800 to 1000 PEP. Of course this all depends on your swr, a lot of people get crazy power ratings because of a high swr along with a worn out meter. Best of luck to you on your amp. One of the better small amps i ever had was a 4x2879 xforce did a fine job for me.tracker5 wrote:Yes your right, I only get about 1.5 s unit differnce with my 2 pill. I really don't need to much more power. Just like to have enough to shoot some skip. I don't think I will get that 1x2 or the other 2pill. I think I will save a little more money and get a 4 pill. Now I have been looking at a fatboy base 4 pill. They have 2 kinds 4x1446 Base and 4x2879. The 4x1446 is rated for high drive radios but would rather have 4x2879. drdx do you think the 4x2879 is a good choice or the 4x1446? What kind of wattage do you think I could get driving either of the two with my radio?drdx wrote:The radio, with 40w, is too much for the 1 in the 1x2. In fact, it is really too much for a straight 2 pill but you can do it. The 2879 "pill" only needs 10 watts for great drive, per the specs, and be running nicely. So...... a straight 4 pill would do fine and make the most of the radio's drive. If you're content with the power of a 1x2, and it is probably plenty for many, then get it since it is a good price but don't put over 10w or so into that 1x2, as it doesn't need the drive. The 1 pill is there for that.
Something else to think about is that if your radio is doing 40w a 2 pill amp is not going to add a whole lot of signal, maybe 1.5 s-units or so on voice peaks. The 4 pill would add to that nicely.
-drdx
Thanks for your suggestions.
But I'm sure it is true, driving a 2879 with 40w will get more out of it, but more what? Heat? Wear and tear? Harmonics? TVI? yep, yep, and yep I do believe. If you need it that bad, just up the pill count. 250 watts per pill is more than even the most optimistic builders put out there on their websites when operated on stock voltage so there's a clue for you there. drdx wrote:Interesting, so by that thinking the 4 pill needs 160 watts of drive? Maybe so, they do make a "2x4" and some buy them. How much does 1000 watts peak on a dosy meter compare to a reliable meter and with a low pass filter in line to see something closer to reality? And what is the increased likelihood of TVI by driving one that hard? How much more signal are we talking about in increase from 500 to 1000 watts? By my math, a half a pound, but maybe if Dosy made radio signal meters it would be 3 or 4.
I'm not sure how much more a cheap Dosy grade meter reads than a higher end meter. If you're using that same Dosy meter to measure the 40w drive, you're probably not really driving with 40 watts. So what may look like 40 watts drive per pill for a 1000w peak outcome on a Dosy meter may in reality be a 20W drive and 500 watts in the real world. Using a cheap meter that reads more wattage isn't going to make you get out any better than using a good meter that reads a more realistic figure but if it feels good then get one. These meters aren't scientific anyway and just a relative measuring device.
One final thought on drive though is that when you say 40 watts, I guess it depends on how often you're hitting that mark and how. If you're whistling and hitting it then you're not doing 40w peak unless you whistle to talk. Average voice level peaks are more closer to what will determine things as far as the outcome.
What kind of higher end meter are would you suggest using since you seem to be a meter expert, maybe a bird which is only good for rms, considering the peak version reads very loose. Or maybe an mfj, which i have found to be very loose. Maybe a paradynamics, well no not it either because it is worse than the others. I have ran a lot of of meters and if youre running under 4000 watts to me the dosey is the way to go. As for voltage most "comp" amplifiers run on more than 13.8 volts in fact most run at 17.5 or higher which of course will make the transistor put out more than it is rated at. Plus averaging in the higher drive.
Back to the subject of how much the radio is putting out, running it through a dummyload will give a very accurate depiction of the actual wattage ruling out a rating influenced by swr. All i know is based off the radio at factory specs running around 4watts, after being peaked the same radio does over 40 on a dummyload I dont think that is too unreasonable.
I could argue all day with someone about wattage outputs. Facts are many companies make a 2x4 amp 2x2290 driving 4x2879 and rate them at around 1200 to 1300 "bird" watts. When i put the on the meter with around 1.5 watt deadkey around 40 watts swing the same amp will do close to 1000 watts swing PEP and deadkey around 150 to 200 not putting a high strain on the pills. A lot of people don't realize a high deadkey will kill your pills way before the swing will. Gets down to it you can get away with running some pretty crazy stuff as long as the deadkey is low.
Now on the subject of a low pass filter I run a filter between my watt meter and final amp a slight wattage difference is noticeable but nothing to sweat. But really wattage fluxuation can be caused by anything perhaps its not the filter causing the drop but the extra "jumper" or 3feet of coax put in line. Adding or taking away a jumper can cause wattage to drop or rise. Give it a try
Now on the original subject of our friend wondering what amp to use, if you choose a 4x2879 box driving it with just the radio it should last forever. If you drive it you may have to replace the pills ever so often especially if you plan on running a 4 to 5 watt deadkey which in my opinion is far to high if you plan to drive the amp with a 2 pill or one pill.
Fact is regardless of anyones opinion everyone will run their radio how they want and believe what they want. I've never had any complaints unless it's from an ear ache. Best of luck to you on your set up and amp selection. I will leave this topic at that.
All this talk makes that beam sound better and better all the time.
-drdx
AYIYI some people never get it oh well. I have been droppin the maul on the "old school" 10 watt cbers for too long. There is no point in arguing but the prove is in the pudding, take your 5 watt deadkeys and ten watt swings and i'll take my 1.5watt deadkey and45 watt swing and we will see who comes out on top. This can be done all while keeping clear audio. I run my equipment to get max performance for talking skip or local. I get the most out of my money, if i wanted to run a ten watt radio id hook up my brownings. Why should anyone spend thousands of dollars on an amp and then run it at half its capability. If you want to play you have to pay thats the rule of cbing, if you go cheap you may as well go home.drdx wrote:Wow, it looks like I said a lot and may have been talking to myself, but look a few posts up and you'll see what I wrote.
I'm not arguing, this hobby isn't worth that and I'm no meter expert. I'm not sure if one exists, but we all know that dosy is a generous reading meter for most. Looking at that post, I went back and looked at davemade's posted numbers for a 4 pill on stock voltage and they have 800 peak, still optimistic but that is not a kw. I like old Drake meters, my ameritron is good for ballpark rms in the mobile, and an array solutions will be my next buy.
When checking output, it is mentioned " running it through a dummyload will give a very accurate depiction of the actual wattage ruling out a rating influenced by swr". I totally agree. When would you rely on anything BUT a dummy load to really test output when dialing in a setup? We all have that friend with peaky swr that shows him high output that he lives by. Don't be that guy. That's the same guy that shows up to the Cher concert in the original Cher, "Turn Back Time T-shirt", please don't take us down that road. There is enough purse swinging for us all to choke on the straps.
On the part where it says: "Now on the original subject of our friend wondering what amp to use, if you choose a 4x2879 box driving it with just the radio it should last forever. If you drive it you may have to replace the pills ever so often especially if you plan on running a 4 to 5 watt deadkey which in my opinion is far to high if you plan to drive the amp with a 2 pill or one pill." I'm a little confused. If you have to replace the pills as you would a set of brake pads it seems like it is too much, but that's just me. Why would you not set it up so it would last forever? The confusing part is that a 4 to 5 watt deadkey is "far too high" yet if the pills are in a final configuration 40 watts is what they need. Which is it?
I'm just razzing you here a little as it appears you're pretty passionate about it. I love a 1 to 8 ratio, meaning in my case a casual 2x16, 4x32 scenario for example. Maybe I'm leaving a lot of performance on the table. According to your numbers I've got a 5kw mobile but I consider it just an honest kw rms.
On a similar topic, and this is funny, and came from a really great local operator. He phoned me last week, very excited. He had his new 2x8 setup all running and was seeing 1500 watts. He has one battery, #8 wire, a 90 amp alternator and his wiring looks like spaghetti. He SWORE he was doing that much. After a little talk, and keep in mind this guy is sharp electrically, I explained to him that while it sounds great that even at stock voltage his 1500 would be sucking more than his alternator and that at a minimum he'd have a low voltage check engine situation cooking, factoring in amplifier efficiency he is in need of Lord knows how many amps to supply that wattage after the driver (40 amps? ), the 8 pills (160 amps?), plus his jeep (???). It gets comical after a while. Maybe I'm way off here. My guess is that he's cooking with 800w or so. He runs a fair amount of maul and not a swing fan. Swing is great for the meter but easy to mash. I love the swing fan, it saves me wattage.
-drdx
I'm not getting into the drive requirement discussion, lol, but a Dosy will real LOWER than a 43p or Palstar or any other meter with a powered sampling circuit.drdx wrote: I'm not sure how much more a cheap Dosy grade meter reads than a higher end meter. -drdx
Beavis in middle Tn. does all of my radio work and has for years, if you'd like to contact him and ask questions let me know via pmtracker5 wrote:Rooster how did you get your dead key that low on your 2980wx and sound clear? I tried it and it doesn't sound too good.With or without a box The lowest dk I can get is 4w with a clear sound . "Is there a modification I would need to do?" I done it with my General Lee with mosfet finals and it sounds awsome with or without a box. I like running my deadkey low also while still getting max swing.
Is there a mod to make it sound clear?