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2 Element Quad Construction

Tell us what your doing from day to day. Post your daily notes here.

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2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Wednesday, 15 June 2011, 10:14 AM

Hey !
Journal on my 2 element quad
Well.. seems like this section has been quiet for too long ..so here we go

The Plan : 2 element quad (inspired by HomerBB)
Center Freq : 27.405
Mast : 6ft 1 5/8 OD Galvanized steel pipe
Element Wire : 10 Ga single strand copper
Spreaders : 1/2 inch PVC ..reinforced inside with wood dowels
Reflector to Driven Element Spacing : 5.38 FT

This is what we have so far


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Since I live in a 3rd world country ..everything has to be "fabricated"..which will make this even more challenging :biggrin:
The Quad Hubs got finished yesterday..and fit nice and snug to the boom.
They are both open ended ..the idea being to adjust them in + out for front to back and gain adjustments.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Wednesday, 15 June 2011, 10:19 AM

Sweet! Looking great so far.
Thanks for the by-line, but it will be all you in the long run, and you're off to a great start.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Wednesday, 15 June 2011, 10:28 AM

Need to pickup the PVC for the spreaders today..along with the inside wooded dowels for support (thanks Homer)

For me.. looking at all the Quad pics on the web.. I never really appreciated just how BIG ..this S.O.B will be !!

Thinking to myself today.. how much easier this project would have been.. if the founding fathers at the FCC moved us on up to 49 MHZ !

Some Concerns ...
Like **NON-SPONSOR**..I have this Super Heavy Duty syndrome ..so while normal people design Quads using #12 or #14 ga. wire ...mine MUST be #10.
Reading about how this should positively affect the bandwidth ..with less of a dropoff in gain.. and I was convinced.
Just how well the PVC Spreaders will hold true to form will be the next up and coming adventure !

More later ...
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by 626 » Wednesday, 15 June 2011, 16:49 PM

HAHAHAHA Its a syndrome?

Hey man Im looking forward to watching the progress on this bad boy. Keep up the good work.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Wednesday, 15 June 2011, 18:17 PM

Thanks for all the goodwill Homer and **NON-SPONSOR**.. I'm staying motavated here.

Had some setbacks today ..seems that the wooden support dowels for inside the spreader arms are not available.
I'm kind of worried that my 1/2 PVC spreader arms wont be up to the task.

So i'm attacking the support issue a couple of different ways.
I noticed something interesting today in the #10 wire.
Because its one strand and so large it does a great job of supporting itself.
I straightened out a 4 ft section by hand ..and it stood perefectly ..no bending !
Now my thought process is that maybe all that tension wont be needed by the spreader arms to keep us in a nice tight cubical form.
I'll try my theory out on that tomorrow.

Need to buy a new ladder tomorrow .. as my 6ft folding one wont get it done.
This will help me to elavate the boom on the ground and continue working.

Also need to find a good process for stretching the wire..as this will be critical in getting all the tiny dips and rises resolved so we have a nice straight 1/4 wave copper wire elements.

A fine tip sharpie works great in marking off the 1/4 wave sections
When dry.. it adheres to copper very well and wont rub off.

Overall a good day !
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Thursday, 16 June 2011, 8:58 AM

Keep us posted.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Thursday, 16 June 2011, 17:42 PM

Made some decisions today.

Since i'm not able to source material (wooden dowels) in order to reinforce the spreaders..I have decided to go with 3/4 PVC instead of the 1/2 .
Off to the Fabricators tomorrow with wholesale changes ...heheheh :blackeye:

Saw a website where someone ingenious enough got the smaller diam. PVC to support ...but involved connecting both the driven and reflector with additional PVC and ropes to compensate for the sag.

So we go with the 3/4 for spreaders ...and also decided to modify the tubes that connect the spreaders to the hub by extending the length from the now 5 inches to 12...should help out leaps and bounds better than the current config.

Have to be carefull here as anymore length would start to influence the RF properties of the quad.


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Got the new 20 ft folding ladder this morning ..and proceeded to trim back some of the tree limbs...but there is still more to go .

I having trouble understanding the support connections from the element wire to the spreaders.
Know it sounds like a simple thing ..but need to search more for some better pics or drawings .

Ill post some pics tomorrow of the site location along with the modded hubs
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Thursday, 16 June 2011, 17:57 PM

I did this:

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by yamaha » Thursday, 16 June 2011, 17:57 PM

Its not just 3rd word but the git-real world. Who can realy dish out 1000$ on a antenna that is at tops 100 bucks in material and could be assembled by a cave man.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Thursday, 16 June 2011, 18:33 PM

Hey Homer ...
Yes I saw you mentioned the PVC "T" ...but that T is only at your feed point ?

It didnt look like to me that you used the T's for all the spreaders ..but maybe i'm wrong ?

Thanks !
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Thursday, 16 June 2011, 20:36 PM

I put PVC caps on the ends of the spreaders, drilled holes through them, and ran the wire through those holes.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Thursday, 16 June 2011, 21:13 PM

LOL ..dosent get much clearer than that

Thanks for your time and help my friend !

A note to anyone actually trying to build one of these.
While "Googling" dont just necessarily skip over a home made quad because its not in the same band as 10 or 11 meters.
I was doing this ..."skipping over" anything that was not described for 10 or 11 meters.
Really the only things that change are the wire length ...nothing more.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Friday, 17 June 2011, 14:51 PM

Got the hubs into the shop today..they will be ready tomorrow

Picked up the 8 7ft spreaders with their end caps (Homer) ..LOL

As you can see in the pictures ..I have one tree that must be trimmed back that would affect the quads southern view.

Tonight i will be researching the choke balun in detail . ...and wire stretch techniques

I dont have any 50 ohm coax..as this will be coming in from the U.S on wedensday.

Will post better pics tomorrow when the hubs get completed



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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Friday, 17 June 2011, 19:56 PM

Well, that's progress.

The choke can be as simple as five to six wraps of 50 Ohm coax around a four inch core such as a piece of PVC, etc, any non-conductive material.

Looking forward to more.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Saturday, 18 June 2011, 16:44 PM

Nice when you receive parts when promised
The new hubs were ready today on time.
They came out great...perfect fit to the boom
Now the core of our work seems to be done.

Plans for tomorrow
Deciding on how the quad is going to get its support (mast or tower).
Building 7 1/2 ft saw horses that will allow me to continue working at ground level while supporting the monster !
Complete the balun construction

On Monday i will get the mast to boom tube welded in place.


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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Saturday, 18 June 2011, 16:52 PM

Looking great.
I supported my Quad between two step ladders.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by MDYoungblood » Sunday, 19 June 2011, 12:28 PM

Hey Island_0860,
Are you going to make your cubical quad dual polarity? You need to do a little research into the HyGain Big Gun II. it was a quad like you are building with 2 driven wires. What you have so far is excellent work, keep it up.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by 626 » Sunday, 19 June 2011, 19:35 PM

There are so many options with quads. One of the main advantages is that they are a little less affected by height then a yagi. You still wanna get it up in the air at least a wavelength cause its not referenced to ground.

MD Youngblood brought up a good point. If you want you can have it vertically polarized, horizontally polarized, you can make it switchable. You can also make both elements driven. You can also drive them out of phase and have circular polarization. Dang they are versatile. Great choice.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Monday, 20 June 2011, 6:25 AM

Hey Homer !

The 2 folding ladders is what I was thinking ...but mine are only 5 FT of the needed 7 FT ! :biggrin:

I'm going with this setup ..but ran out of lumber and nails on a Sunday ..heheheh


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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Monday, 20 June 2011, 7:27 AM

Got some more great news..

I was thinking that I had an "Ace in the hole'' ..with the use of my R2001D and the Tracking Generator function.
Well seems that option isnt installed ..so its back to the traditional methods :blackeye:

I can still use it as a variable low level transmitter..as to simulate distance and this should give me something to look at in evaluating the Quad's performance.


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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Monday, 20 June 2011, 7:38 AM

Hey MDYoungblood !

I plan to use the Horizontal polarity for now.

Since there is no local 11 meter activity here.. and understanding that Horizontal will be a bit easier to support on the Quad ..i'm going to go with that.

Another reason is I just have 150 ft of RG 8 coming in from the US

But the dual polarity will be a priority for the future ... when I decide to go and get a 16 ft boom for 4 elements.

I'm liking your Pierce simpson base by the way ...LOL
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by drdx » Monday, 20 June 2011, 7:52 AM

HomerBB wrote:I put PVC caps on the ends of the spreaders, drilled holes through them, and ran the wire through those holes.

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Man, you are resourceful, that looks great.

Why those caps at then end of the spreaders, and just not drilling holes in the ends of the spreaders themselves? I'm guessing that's easier on assembly and probably takes care of any splitting issues at the end of a spreader, as the cap is easier to replace than the spreader arm? For that matter, you could probably also use couplers instead of caps if that's all you had. Great topic, I was just wondering and like to use as few parts as possible. Do you use pvc cement on yours homer? I'd think the tension would be enough and allow the ability for replacement later as pvc will kinda stick to itself after temperature variances.

On the wire stretching, and I've never done it, but wasn't there some old trick or wive's tale about putting the wire in an oven and cooking it to "temper" it so the stretching wouldn't be an issue?

What about the feed, maybe I missed it, but are you using anything for matching? I've had mixed luck with that on loop feeding myself and used baluns in the past.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Monday, 20 June 2011, 8:23 AM

drdx wrote:
What about the feed, maybe I missed it, but are you using anything for matching? I've had mixed luck with that on loop feeding myself and used baluns in the past.

-drdx
For a single quad loop, or a two element Quad I use a 1/4 wave 75 Ohm matching section and a 1:1 balun. It works every time.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Monday, 20 June 2011, 9:07 AM

Exactly ..
In the perfect world.. the 2 element quad will have close to 100 ohms impedance.
To complete the choke and stepdown the impedence...I plan to coil up 1/4 wave of 75 ohm RG 11

I really attemped to calculate this info on my own ..but was unable to locate any on line or calculator program.
Some of the calculations involve knowing the cable velocity factor impedance etc.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Monday, 20 June 2011, 12:00 PM

example: 36 x .25 x VL (rg59 - .67) = 6.03' or 6'
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by KDDL » Wednesday, 22 June 2011, 9:24 AM

Very interesting project. Will follow it :icon_e_smile:
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Wednesday, 22 June 2011, 13:16 PM

More news..

My shipment of RG-8 wont be available this week ..looks like thursday of next week when everything should clear customs.

The weather has been un-cooperative here now...seems that afternoon t-storms are the norm ..so I will have to work quick and start at daybreak on the weekends.

The lack of cable isn't a real setback ..as there is still PLENTY to do.

Tommorow i will be checking out whats available for mast pipe..and decide on just whats going to get welded below for the boom to mast connection (This was SUPPOSED to have gotten completed on MONDAY).

The pics below show whats been done so far ..at least the wodden A- frames are DONE
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Nagant » Wednesday, 22 June 2011, 14:06 PM

It's looking really good. You sure are making great progress with it.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Tuesday, 28 June 2011, 10:42 AM

Update.

Since there is no ready made telescoping mast to be found and tower sections are $$$... I'm going with a fabricated mast system.

Bought 20 ft of 2"" OD and another 20 ft section of 1 1/2 " Steel tube for the telescoping mast

It's off this afternoon to the welders...here is what needs to get done.

The mast tube will get welded to the boom ..along with some supporting nuts on to the hubs to secure them to the boom .
Some welding material will be added to the inside of the mast to boom pipe..to help further stablize the union .



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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by 108dt206 » Wednesday, 29 June 2011, 12:39 PM

lookin good m8..can`t wait to see the finished product up and running...all the best m8

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Wednesday, 29 June 2011, 14:43 PM

Thanks Barry !

Who knows how much more is left :)

All the major welding is completed .
Just need to fabricate some wall to mast stabilizing mounts for the 2" OD pipe

Here are pics of the completed Hubs and Boom



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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by drdx » Thursday, 30 June 2011, 7:43 AM

Man, that thing looks like it will be built like a tank. What are you using for a rotator?

On the wire stretching, isn't there a way to "bake" wire so it is more tempered or something to prevent stretch, or is that just some cb mythology? I'm no metalurgist or however it is spelled but stretching can be an issue on long runs. In your case I'm not sure it would come into play.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Thursday, 30 June 2011, 9:39 AM

Hey Doc..

Yes i'm going to probably get around to wire stretch operation on Sunday.

Its gonna be 2 pieces of 8 gauge pure copper wire each rough cut to 39 FT lengths...and i plan to stretch them out at the same time

Checkout the pic... the wire can support itself..that is a 5 FT piece standing on its own :mrgreen:

Need to check with **NON-SPONSOR**... to see if that wire could withstand 12W PEP :biggrin:

Dont know how much more fun awaits me when I thread the wire thru the spreaders.....I'm thinking HomerBB is grinning now....:)))

Its built heavy duty yep ..but i'm out of options as the most common material available is steel.

Total weight is not that bad..feels like 40 lbs




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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by drdx » Thursday, 30 June 2011, 9:49 AM

I'm not sure if you've thought of it, but that longer wire may tune a little lower than thinner #14. You may need to shorten your length a bit to account for that so it behaves as you like. If the parasitic element is a reflector you will be fine as it may just appear electrically a little long. If using it as a director it could be a tad too long if you're not careful, as #8 is some large wire for a quad. I love it.

How will you fine tune it? Without an analyzer, you could just feed each element and tune to resonance, then make the reflector 5% longer or whatever your formula dictates and be close, or feed the reflector and tune it to a lower frequency below band so it exhibits the right qualities. They behave a little differently in the air vs. the ground too, but that can all be sorted out.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Thursday, 30 June 2011, 9:58 AM

WHen I was tuning mine I asked questions about the 5% thing. The answers were universally the same. Tune my driver to best SWR (I had no analyzer) on the band of choice, and then make the physical length of the reflector 5% longer. I specifically asked if tuning the reflector to a given frequency would be better 5% longer method, no stubs or other matching devices on the reflector. Just cut it and mounted it.
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Thursday, 30 June 2011, 10:54 AM

Yes Homer.. I found the same answers..and probably like you I have 20 Quad bookmarked sites and a 50 meg private Quad folder.

Doctor..you bring up an excellent point about the element wire diameter vs length.
There is an outstanding . PDF on this very subject called "Rethinking the quad beam" by L.B Cebik ..which WONT put you to sleep !

Have a number of outstanding books on Antenna design and Fundamentals ...but I go off to sleep after 5 mins :icon_e_surprised: ..but in reading this PDF I could follow right along

Here is the D/L link to the PDF :


http://alfadelta-radio.com/index.php?op ... &Itemid=66
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by 626 » Thursday, 30 June 2011, 20:27 PM

Island_0860 wrote: Need to check with **NON-SPONSOR**... to see if that wire could withstand 12W PEP :biggrin:
You got the go ahead man. Heck Im thinking 1200W would be fine. You got the **NON-SPONSOR** "overkill" seal of approval.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Thursday, 14 July 2011, 12:51 PM

It's been awhile since the last update.

I had all kind of troubles finding these 2 inch steel couplings locally
The only ones that I have came with the pipe.
Anyway its off to the big city tomorrow to pick up 3 more of these.
I'm finally all cleared with local customs..so I get to pickup my radio with the 150ft run of RG-8...no point in making 2 seperate 7 hour trips.

My plan is to cut the couplings in half and use those as the basis of the wall to mast connection.
I like the threads on the couplings ....they will dig in to the mast pipe providing a good grip.

More tomorrow and this weekend as things begin to take shape


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HomerBB
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by HomerBB » Thursday, 14 July 2011, 17:55 PM

Good deal. We'll be watching.
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Slim Pickins
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Slim Pickins » Thursday, 14 July 2011, 18:28 PM

Looking good. I dunno though, 12w may be pushing it on thet wire :P

Slim
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Island_0860
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Wednesday, 27 July 2011, 14:58 PM

Finally got the coax and radio in from the U.S last week ...all is OK so far.

Picked up the **NON-SPONSOR** approved customized steel Wall to Mast support from the shop today.

It was designed from Channel Master's mast to wall mount (on the far left in the picture) ...just added some beef to accomadater the 2 inch mast pipe.

On the far right is the 2 inch steel couplings that were cut in half to form the Mast supports.

The boom is getting its mast tube welded with some outside support nuts ..and I'll post some pics of that tomorrow.



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626
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by 626 » Wednesday, 27 July 2011, 16:55 PM

I appreciate your desire to go heavy duty. I really do. The only concern I have is if it will weigh too much.

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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by drdx » Thursday, 28 July 2011, 14:53 PM

Well, from his location, if he's big on North American action, it only needs about a 90 degree span. That 2 element can almost slice that down the middle, but I too wondered on the weight issue. If I had his roof and was thrifty I'd spend all of my money on coax and make separate directional arrays, all switched, and call it a day, no moving parts involved, but the quads are Qool with a capital Q. <-- original word alert

-drdx
Yes it's me, Dollar-98, drdx, the original all *Censored*, shot cawla on workin this no-fade technology.

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Island_0860
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by Island_0860 » Thursday, 28 July 2011, 15:38 PM

Got the boom fully completed ..the hex bolts now welded to the mast support pipe as seen in the picture.
Going to have to grind down inside the boom mast tube, because as it is its too snug of a fit.
Thats easily doable by myself with a drill and stone.

In the final pic of the boom with the hubs..I'm showing them spaced out about 6.5 feet which should provide ample space to move them in and out ( which I imagine i'll be doing a LOT of) :mrgreen:

Most of the references suggest a starting point of 5.3 feet between reflector and driven.

Hey **NON-SPONSOR**...I did a weigh in ...and im seeing around 14 pounds for the 8 foot boom with the hubs attached...keep in mind i will be cutting off close to 2 feet of boom after adjustments

Estimating the final complete assy to weigh 16 pounds, not too bad for all steel construction
Dont understand where I originally got 40 from ...oh well.. :p

Doctor DX nailed it ..ill be pointing it to the U.S ...as there is nothing interesting to me South North or to the East for now....unless KDDL starts getting conditions in Norway :mrgreen:

The rotor will be armstrong type.



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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by KDDL » Friday, 29 July 2011, 3:47 AM

Are you gonna use muscle rotor?
20WR4040



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drdx
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by drdx » Friday, 29 July 2011, 7:03 AM

Hey man, that outcome is way lighter than I'd ever imagine.

How big is that roof of yours? Maybe it is the pic but it looks huge, I'm jealous. You could take some wire, some support material, and make a boomless wire yagi aimed in a general european direction for really cheap, using wire elements, supported at the end by simple supports, just like your dipole in the pic but with a reflector and director(s) and really boom into a target area. A beam like that of 4,5,6,7 elements or whatever you have the length for would certainly wake the band up earlier than the quad might to the east.

-drdx
Yes it's me, Dollar-98, drdx, the original all *Censored*, shot cawla on workin this no-fade technology.

-drdx



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2J-FJ
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Re: 2 Element Quad Construction

Post by 2J-FJ » Tuesday, 09 August 2011, 21:21 PM

Wow, this thing is QUALITY! I bow to your skills.

For sometime now, I've wanted to build something just like this!!! Awesome!!
CB'ing - Oh what a feeling!




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